Transcript: Christine Garvin 0:02
Hey everybody, welcome to this week’s episode of hormonally speaking, today, we are diving into what I think is a fun area, but I know can be triggering. For some women because of past experiences with exercise. Maybe when they were young, they were sort of forced to do something that they didn’t really enjoy. Or, you know, the idea was always weight loss and the focus on that, but we know how important and I always go to the term movement, right rather than exercise. We know how important movement is for the body, that we evolved to move our bodies right and unfortunately, we are not tending to move our bodies as much as maybe we should be or that our bodies really want us to be. So we’re gonna be diving into all of that today with my guest. Dawnelle Arthur is a movement therapists orthopedic exercise specialist, health coach and online fitness teacher with over 20 years of experience. She specializes in helping people recover from injuries and helps to improve their mobility, flexibility, strength and agility in every class she teaches Dawnelle is the owner of age define online movement therapy studio that offers live workouts on Zoom, feel better movement therapy programs and over 100 online workouts. She is passionate about helping people recover, recover after injury and as experienced making a comeback, having bounce back stronger than ever after two hip replacements. With her unique blend of expertise and experience. Darnell is dedicated to helping people feel better daily through their her movement therapy and fitness programs. You can learn more about her website Age Defy me.com Or follow her on Tik Tok at move young live young. Welcome. Dawnelle Arthur 1:50
Thank you. Yeah, Christine Garvin 1:52
so yes, I’m glad to have you here and talking about this subject that is both exciting, I think for a lot of people and also daunting for a lot of people. So let’s actually dive into the hip replacements aspect because as we were talking about before we hopped on here, a lot of women are going to have some surgery at some point in particularly, I’d say, you know, in that midlife region, right, whether it’s you have the C section from, you know, giving birth or whatever other thing happens. So how did you a end up having to need those hip replacements and then move back into moving your body afterwards. Dawnelle Arthur 2:37
Okay, so I had a C section 12 years ago with my son. After that I had to have another surgery because the C section the scar tissue at wrapped around the nerves, and I had to have a nerve entrapment surgery. So I had two abdominal surgeries within a two year period, if I can remember correctly. And at the time, I still was teaching all my yoga classes and doing all that stuff. You know, I own studios in Denver at the time, so I was still had to, you know, take care of my son and do all the classes at my studio while I was still trying to recover from both surgeries. Now did that cause my hip replacement needs? I don’t know. Nobody knows why my hips needed to be replaced. All I know is around age 40. I started being like, What is wrong with my hip, my left hip specifically, what is wrong with my hip? And you have to remember by this so I’ve been teaching yoga for 12 years, I’ve taught hundreds of people how to teach yoga. I just kept trying to fix my hip and it just wasn’t. It wasn’t nothing was happening. And then I started going to choir practice and then I started to go into massage therapist and acupuncturist and were offers I did everything I could to figure out what was wrong with my hip before I finally got the dreaded MRI. And I was hit like a ton of bricks on what they said at the time. My left hip had an acid toddler cyst, grade three arthritis, a torn labrum matory gluteus medius. I mean, I was a wreck. And this was after also a year of adventures that I spent with my best friend where we did four days on the four paths loop in Aspen, Colorado, we ran a 60 mile mountain race in Alaska. And my hit this was right before coming back from Alaska, I found out about my hip, right. And so I just wasn’t prepared to think I was going to have to have my hip replaced. Yeah, mine. There were nothing. There was nothing on Google about a yoga teacher needing her hip replaced at age 4041. Right. So I was just alone. And I will tell you for the first time, my life, I hit a three month depressed period I could I lost my identity. I lost everything I thought I knew I felt was wrong. I felt like I’ve led hundreds of people down the wrong road. I just couldn’t believe it. I really had an identity crisis. And so one day I just remember so Oh being so upset. And then I finally was like, oh my goodness, I don’t know who put this thought in my head, but it came in your head and it saved me. And it said, if this is happening to you, sooner or later, it’s going to be happening to other people. And fast forward, you know, I’m 48. Now fast forward eight, nine years late later, guess what it is, I have so many people now in their young 40s reaching out to me going, they just told me I have to have my hip replaced, you know. And so I’m so thankful for my hip injury, I’m so thankful that I did this because I wanted to serve a certain group of people that I felt needed me because I really needed somebody during my time, and there was no buddy, so I became that person for everyone else. And that’s what saved me. And now I get to help all these other people. So with that said, I decided, I thought at the time all I visited nine doctors, I didn’t just, I visited nine doctors, and all of them said, You’re not all of them. The ninth one is different, okay, so we’ll get to the ninth ones. But all of them said, You’re too young, you they won’t last forever, you need to eat. I mean, I’m telling you, every one of them suggested get a career change, consider a career change, because at the time, I was a full time yoga teacher, I owned like five studios in Denver, Colorado, and they were like, you need to consider a career change, you really need to take it easy, because you cannot have surgery, you need to hold off for as long as you can. And I could not take their advice. I was just like, adamant not to take their advice. And I knew they were gonna give this advice to everyone else. And I could not do it. So I went to work, I stopped teaching yoga. And I went to work, I took foot therapy classes, I took mobility classes, I took every I decided to stop learning from yoga teachers and start learning from every movement specialist out there. So during my pain years, I started to learn from Ido portal and functional range conditioning, mobility, lymphatic health became a passion of mine from stop chasing pain. So I basically went and got all these certifications, and all this experience of doing different movement while I was trying to figure out when I was going to have my hip hip replaced. And I create and through that, I took the little pieces that were feeling good to me. And now I’ve created this whole program. That is, you know, what I did was, I spent years trying to fix my hip. And what I did was, I stopped that I stopped trying to fix my hip, and I went to work on the rest of my body. And I went to work on my mind, not through like, stay calm, but more like accept this accept it right now. Because if you don’t you keep fighting against it, you’re never going to rise above it. And that was the voice in my head. And and now I am where I am today. And I had my left hip replaced May of 2019. And I had my right hip replace on January of 2020. Christine Garvin 8:01
Okay, wow. Really close to Yeah, so I Dawnelle Arthur 8:05
didn’t even know. Right hip, I will tell you, I just told this story the other day, my third doctor said, Well, I’m sorry to tell you but you’re right. You’re not getting out of this life without your right hip being replaced either. And I remember tears just rolling down my face in this doctor’s office. And I just thought it was so mean. And I really walked out there just angry at him. And but he was right, because as soon as my and even my knife doctor said, you’re needing both replace, you know, you need them. And I said, I don’t know where I was going with that. But anyway, so if I did, I felt like my right hip was never in pain. But as soon as my left hip roof was replaced, oh my goodness, my right hip was so painful. Christine Garvin 8:47
I’ve been like holding all of that because the left hip couldn’t handle everything. Yeah. Dawnelle Arthur 8:51
Yes. So my doctor had actually said I was supposed to have my right hip replacement three months after the left. I begged him to do both at the same time. But Christine Garvin 9:00
right. Yeah, Dawnelle Arthur 9:02
I just wanted to get it. And I just thought why not? But anyway, so left, and then three months later, we’re supposed to be right, but it’s just feeling so good. I had my life back for the first time and so long that so it was actually a lot farther apart than it was initially Christine Garvin 9:18
you’re planning on doing it. Wow. So I have to ask, do you feel like yoga was a part of this? Dawnelle Arthur 9:25
You know, I think everything is I think there’s nothing I don’t think we heal in one way. That’s the reason why I don’t just teach lymphatic health as white reason I don’t just teach yoga through reason I don’t just teach step flow or any of the things I teach a million classes my my philosophy is this. I think that you need to move new and weird every day not just for the body but the brain as well. And so I my clientele, we never do the same workout twice. It’s never yoga every day. It’s never one thing every day It’s something different every single day. And in that way you don’t rest I don’t believe in rest days, I believe if you need a rest great, but I even I have this thing, this theory of even if you feel like you need a rest, do one song of movement, just one song of movement every day. If you don’t feel like doing a workout, do one song of movement, turn on your favorite song, and just do some Age Defy movements, you know, scapular rotations, pull, I mean, just this movement therapy, stuff that we do do one song, and I’m good, but I just I believe movement is the medicine for the brain and the body. And when I say the brain, keeping the brain young and active and energized, but as well to be able to change your mind around a story. If I didn’t change my mind around my hip pain and my hip definition, there’s no way I’d be sitting right here right now I would have taken those doctors advice and taken it easy, gotten an office job. And I would not be the Danelle, I am today. And I am so thankful that I changed my mind. Christine Garvin 10:59
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s important for people to recognize, you know, I always say this on the podcast, despite the fact that I had a surgery go wrong, my first surgery go wrong. And that led to multiple surgeries after that, you know, we can’t I think we get into such black and white thinking in this culture right now of you know, that’s all bad. And this is all good. And the reality is everything, from my perspective is somewhere in the middle, right? And that it’s best when we understand that, like you said, it’s like you contacted and worked with all of these different types of people, right, you did Rolfing, all of these things. And then to trial those things and be like, Okay, this wasn’t quite enough for the situation. And it’s okay to have a surgery, you know, that use the best of both worlds. Instead of getting into this mindset of really putting yourself in a box, and maybe inhibiting your healing path by saying, oh, that’s bad over there. You know, it’s like, just explore, right? And Trust yourself, trust yourself, ultimately, to make the best decision for yourself. Dawnelle Arthur 12:14
To be honest with you, I wish I wouldn’t have done the whole chiropractor and Rafina and massage thing. I spent a lot of money for pain relief that not nobody can give to yourself. But you and that’s when I changed my mind, I just said, I’ve got to figure out a way to help people relieve their pain through their own body, because you know, you my clients can wake up in pain. And before maybe they met me right? wake up in pain and wait for their massage appointment or their chiropractor live. But one song of movement therapy can also relieve that pain. And if you can be that resource for yourself, you don’t have to rely on any one person. I’m not saying anything of that’s bad. It’s great. But what it also at the time, I was losing my hips, I also started losing my business in Denver. So my finances took a major hit. And then there did come a time where I absolutely could not afford chiropractic visits or massage therapy. And so then that made me very compassionate to other people who didn’t have the resources to do that. And I felt like it was my responsibility to give people of all income brackets a chance to feel pain relief. Yeah. Do that for free, is learn how to move your body. Christine Garvin 13:32
Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s the whole empowering people situation versus saying you have to rely on me or someone else in order to get better. Absolutely. So when you after you have the second hip replacement, how long was it until you were able to start doing movement again. Dawnelle Arthur 13:51
But well, so this is very important. I believe that let’s go back to like the surgery who would have someone’s a doctor says you have to have a surgery. Me, let’s just tall joint replacement surgery because I can only talk C sections and joint replacement surgeries. And only two surgeries I’ve ever had. So let’s just talk. You go to the doctor and you’ve had this hip pain for a couple years. And the doctor says oh, you’re in need your hip replaced. I do not believe that person should go right into a hip replacement right away. I think that what they should do is something called like a prehab. They should get their mind and their body and their lymphatic system functioning so well before they ever go have that surgery. Like I think they should spend at least three months at least 90 days doing work before they have a surgery. The other thing is you I say this and it’s a same from Martha Graham who is a dance choreographer. She says movement reveals all and that is part of my coaching method. We are in our position for a reason and if you do not reveal what that reason is right so I will tell you, I spent my whole life walking like a duck. I have very hyper mobile hips. I was a yoga star because my hips could move in ways that most people’s couldn’t. That is a good thing. Right? Right. Yeah. And so but I was too young and too, addicted to everyone thinking I was such a good yoga person, because my body the way my body moves, but what I’m saying is, you have to reveal what got you in that position in the first place, and start to rewire it a little bit and get things ready. So like, I can just tell you about a recent client of mine. Her name is Victoria, she’s an orthopedic surgeons nurse, her husband is an orthopedic surgeon, she needed a knee replacement, but she wasn’t ready to have her knee replacement. So she started with me at age two by doing zoom classes, she wanted to keep playing pickleball. That’s my little message. When they told me to sit on the couch and take it easy and get an office job, I decided I needed to figure out ways to keep me moving and keep me in the job that I love. So if Victoria heard me say that somewhere and what she loved was pickleball. So she wanted to be able to play pickleball until she had her knee replacement surgery. And that’s what she did, you know, she laid the ball. And now she just had her knee replacement surgery, she’s already back in classes. And it’s just, it’s awesome. And so that’s what this is all about you. You know, you have to come back, you have to get your body ready before the surgery. And then you have to do your rehab. And I’m not necessarily the rehab person, I am more the post tab and or the prehab. In the post tab, we have a leave it up to the physical therapists, right. That’s physical therapy work. But what I do is physical therapy work too. But it’s three, four, and it’s after Victoria use me for her rehab. But that’s because we’ve worked together for a year before she had her surgery. So she felt comfortable with me returning to rehab, but I’m just saying my claim to fame is pre and post. Christine Garvin 16:57
It’s interesting, because there you know, is some of the fertility experts that I’ve talked to you the holistic fertility experts really talk about that three months before your you get pregnant. And it’s the same idea of prepping your body, right. And this is a little bit you know, more focused on maybe gut health and things like that. But it’s the same idea of you really prep your body, because our bodies are amazing. And the more that you support them in that time before you go into something that’s going to change your body on some level, the more that it’s going to be able to handle that. And then I don’t want to necessarily use the word bounce back. But the more that you can get back into movement and things like that after it’s over without having to wait a long period of time. Dawnelle Arthur 17:45
Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I love that that correlation. I say at least give it 90 days, like find out you need a report joint replacement and then give it 90 days right? And find out what you can do where where where does it lie? Because another thing that I love to say and it’s from my coach from stop chasing pain from lymphatic health, he says where it is it isn’t where the pain is, it isn’t and we find it we need to find where it started from because it’s all connected but where the pain sources has usually come from something below it or above it. Christine Garvin 18:23
It can you explain actually, because people may not know about the lymphatic system, they may not understand functional, you know, movement? Can you explain these things? Dawnelle Arthur 18:32
Kinda? Yeah. I don’t have a script, right? I explain things through motion. I explain things in that in a class filled with my community on a zoom class. And you know, and all of a sudden, I’ll just say something and I’m like, Okay, I’m explaining this really well. But I will tell you that the lymphatic system and learning about the lymphatic system and truly believing in the reasoning behind you have to focus on it is just true in my life today. So it was during IEF way before I even had the hip replacements, right as soon after I found out I needed my hips replaced. I went and studied with Dr. Perry Nicholson because his name was stop chasing pain and I had Chase pain forever. So I was like, I think this is meant for me. And so I went to Texas, and I was sitting in a gym filled with personal trainers. Like I didn’t know what I was getting into right? Chiropractors because he’s a chiropractor. And he walks into this gym full of full of like, personal trainers like I’m talking gym people right? I was the only yoga person in this room and he walks in and says, I know you guys are all here to learn how to you know help your clients lose weight and how to help them do this. But if there’s one thing you can take from today’s course it’s you need to find out about the lymphatic system you need to start training your clients on healthier lymphatic system and for some reason that went inside me and I came home and went down the rabbit hole. So I explain it as the lymphatic system is it is the system that helps everything just kind of move along. I don’t love to say detox and all that kind of stuff. But it is a part of your toxic system. And when it becomes stagnant, that’s when you age, I think if your lymphatic system is stagnant, that is the the signs of aging, okay, so the lymphatic fluid is a fluid that needs us, us to do it. So the blood flow is constant that just happens, we can increase blood flow through movement and breath work. But the lymphatic system has no pump, you have to be the pump for the lymphatic system. And the way to do that is the way I do it. There’s many ways but I only do through movement, massage, tapping, right launching, and then moving. Right, so we go. So if I was just going to do like a little bit of I touched the whole body and we get to know it. But let’s just say I don’t do full body lymphatic in all my classes. But there’s a lymphatic series and every one of my classes because I think it’s that important, it could be way as delicious. Take the chest, so I would just go fingertips, I lift the chest and my fingertips, I teach them I call and lymphatic breathing, I want the ribs to open with their inhale, right. And then I want them to feel that energy. And then we go a little harder, faster. And then we tap and then we flush. And if it’s anything above the heart, were flushing down and the same thing below the heart we’re pulling up, right? That stimulates our lymphatic fluid to start to flow. And that flow is I don’t I’m not sure why you don’t want to use the words back, bounce back. But I’m going to tell you, I feel like it’s me bounce back. I don’t want to say the wrong thing or triggering anybody. I really feel like I’ve bounced back mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, because I have a every day I am stimulating my lymphatic. Christine Garvin 22:01
Yeah, well, and I think it’s really important from the perspective of a lot of what I do with clients is working on gut health. And then you know, essentially, whatever you want to call it, metabolism or detoxification, right, every body has to break down everything that comes into it, metabolize it, detoxify it, move it out, you know, and the lymphatic system is something that is overlooked a lot in that process, right. It’s one of our major drainage pathways. And that is what I see it often in my practice, too, that gets backed up so often, right, and it’s not something that’s really focused on enough. And so I love that that’s a component of it. Because yeah, you can sort of do all the other things and if the length isn’t moving, you know, we know you know that when the lymph gets backed up, and it can be really bad down the road, you know, it can it can lead to breast cancer, it can do all these kinds of things. And so it’s like, yeah, this has to be a part of the whole you know, focusing on the whole body and really make things move. Yeah. Dawnelle Arthur 23:06
Inner and outer like I i am i teach exercise. It’s funny you said that because I never used the word exercise barely ever I do it just kind of speechless. Don’t understand what I’m saying. So I’ll say exercise is its movement therapy, its movement, this movement, movement, our movement is there. Christine Garvin 23:28
So tell us about functional movement. What is that? Oh, I Dawnelle Arthur 23:31
don’t know what functional movement is. I don’t do that. Christine Garvin 23:33
I just You said that earlier about functional movement? No, you said that Dawnelle Arthur 23:37
I was like, I wonder movement I I focus on focus on foot therapy. joint health. So you know every joint has its job and I want that joint to be able to do its job but because you’ve connected through the muscles of the joint you know what’s going on right? Thoracic spinal mobility, okay, rib movement, and lymphatic health. Those are literally like the six things that I focus on and I all of my classes even though they’re all have different names, all six are focused on that’s the only repetition i That’s the only thing I focus on these six things in all my classes, like I taught step flow today, which is Age Defy step aerobics. We do it barefoot, because with therapy right? Brain Body connection through the feet is one of the most powerful things that I think the world is missing out on the fitness world is missing out on. And so set float, we did lymphatic breathing. We did you know joint health, even for our hands and our wrists and our elbows. So everything I’ve created focuses on those movement therapy components and that’s, that’s that’s my functional movement. I guess Christine Garvin 25:00
Yeah, absolutely. Well, can you dive a little bit more into the joint aspect? Because I think that that’s such a common pain, especially as women start to get into their 40s I see it a lot. Dawnelle Arthur 25:12
Yeah. I mean, you keep asking the question, I could talk for hours. So I am so talkative, but joint health is a passion of mine, because I had unhealthy joints, right. So that there, it all begins in the feet. Listen, if your feet if you do not have foot foot stability, if you do not have, I mean, if you don’t learn how to if you have a bunion, and you don’t know how to work your feet with the bunion, if you don’t, you’ve got to get the feet working. And I that is how we have joint health. So every class we’re working on joint movement, right, to increase the range of motion and every joint to increase the stability and mobility of every joint and to create the connection of mind and body through the joint movement. So those are the four joint things that I’m focusing on. If the feet can’t support the joint, you know what I’m saying. To me, it’s it’s foot therapy all day, every day first, and you start working in the joints. So you know, ankle mobility, your ankles need to be mobile, so your feet, you need foot stability, ankle mobility, knee stability, hip mobility, sacral, stability, thoracic mobility, scapular stability, shoulder mobility, right? So I do, knowing the site, the body knowledge of the joints, and what the joints need, we we create that I create scapular stability, I create shoulder mobility. The problem is, is that you can’t just train the joints to be what they’re supposed to be. They need range of motion of both, they need to be able to be stable, but also mobile, shoulder blades for the shoulder blades are meant to be a stable joint, right. But the thing is, we’ve we’ve loaded them as their one we’re not engaging them through everyday life, right, right. Stabilizing them through everyday life. So you have to have a teacher like me, that’s like reversing the office on the back and on the posture, and then the shoulder blades get stuck. And when you think when they’re stuck, and there’s no movement in the scapula that can lead to pain all over the body that no one’s talking about right? Knee even though the scapula is meant to be stable. What it’s not meant to do is be stuck. So I move the shoulder blades a lot in my classes Christine Garvin 27:46
makes sense. So I have to ask what do you think about weight training? Alongside all of these things now? Yeah, I’m super curious. Dawnelle Arthur 27:54
Have you followed me on TikTok you know how many people get so mad at me about my thoughts on weight training? Okay, so of course I weight trained my whole life. I am an exercise scientist. I started my career at 20 in college as a trained personal trainer and a certified personal trainer and aerobics instructor. So I’ve been a personal trainer since I was 20 years old. I am 48 years old. That’s 28 years of being a personal trainer. And I believe in weights but in a different way. But before weights, I believe you need to test your joints. And if your joints cannot support your own bodyweight, then there’s absolutely no way you should have an external load as a strength training option, and that’s what gets me in trouble on tick tock because on everyone’s been told, Oh, when you get in your 40s you start losing your muscle mass, you got to lift weights, or you’re just an it’s bullcrap. Excuse my language, but it really is. I think it’s very irresponsible for anybody that stand for people to go and lift weights in the gym without doing mobility and bodyweight strength training first, and that is I’m very passionate about it. Yeah. So I do have a strong program. The only reason why I even got back into lifting weights with my clients is because my clients who have been with me for so long, they started saying, What about weights? Should I go and start lifting weights and I didn’t want them to lift weights with anybody but me. So I created a strong program. So once a week we lift weights, okay, that’s it. Only if they pass the test. Which do you want me to show you the test? Yeah. Christine Garvin 29:41
So yeah. Okay. Dawnelle Arthur 29:46
This is what I called Tiger position. And if you can’t, if you at least cannot do Tiger and hold this and then get yourself out of Tiger, and then the vehicles add up without any joint pain at all. Then you can take my strong program. Christine Garvin 30:09
Makes sense. Yeah. And I wish everyone would Dawnelle Arthur 30:12
do I really think you have got to be able to support your toes, your ankles, your knees, your core. Core is not just here, but you know what I’m saying? It won’t be my belly. I was keeping front back strong. My hands, I rescued how many people I put into Tiger and they’re like, Oh, my wrist. They didn’t even know they had wrist pain. Yeah. But they’re lifting weights in the gym. Christine Garvin 30:35
Right? Like, right? Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. It is one of these things that is so popularized. That is four steps later than a lot of people are at ya know, I can really see that and, and how you can really damage your body, especially if you go in trying to lift too heavy of weights too quickly, and you don’t have that stability. Dawnelle Arthur 30:57
What Yeah, me I didn’t have stability. And I’m out there, you know, teaching CrossFit style classes and weights like crazy. And so when you asked, was it yoga? I don’t know what if it was nifty with my hypermobility hips? What was that I taught to yoga classes, and then went to the gym and lifted weights and then also did a hike that I love to do. Right, right. combination of all of everything. Yeah, yeah. When I started thinking of like, I snow, I was a, I was a, almost an everyday snowboarder for 1012 years of my life as well. And I mean, I started thinking like this, wow, hips, you really gave me 40 Great years think, oh, much for those years, I would, I would change nothing. So if somebody wants to blame me because of my active lifestyle for my hips, I would rather have been active the way I was for years and have my hips replaced later on in life, then take you know what I’m saying to you? Christine Garvin 31:53
Absolutely. No. And I think that’s a beautiful way to look at it too, right? Because I mean, as your whole approach has been to look at that situation, not as this life ending or career ending situation, but something to deepen you into who you are and what you do in this world and supporting other people. So yeah, that’s pretty, pretty amazing story. Thank you so much for sharing it with us today. Thank you. Let everybody know where they can get in touch with you. Dawnelle Arthur 32:40
My website is actually agedefyonline.com. I have two websites, but it’s buy online.com. Okay. And so reach out to me on HP online.com. You can also I have a private Facebook page. It’s called aged by a studio volubility. That’s really where I do most of my communication and coaching just to the masses that you know, yeah. My Tiktok is move young, live young. And it’s not just a tick tock page. It’s really a tick tock studio, I coach a lot. I do three minute coaching videos. And I also show what my training does. If you go to my tic tock, and you see some of the ways I move, you can’t move like I move until you put five six years into what I do. Only show what’s possible. And and then I also do a lot of coaching and stuff. So I really love my TED talk page. So if you love TikTok there, Christine Garvin 33:29
yeah. And that’s a great way for people to really start to understand more deeply what you do and how you how you work and train so very well thank you so much for sharing all of this amazing information with us today. And I think it will give the listeners a lot to think about for sure. You know, yeah, absolutely. All right, you guys I will see you next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai |
